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Questions: Knob and Tube Wiring

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  1.  
    • CommentAuthorsmoflag56
    • CommentTimeJan 25th 2007 edited
     

    Has anyone run into having to replace all or part of their Knob and Tube Wiring? This would be in homes


    built prior to 1940.

  2.  
    We're going to have to replace all of our knob and tube. But we're taking everything down to the studs or bare brick walls and the current wiring is loooking pretty scary, so we're happy to do it (and know it's going to come with a significant expense).  Before we bought this house, we looked at another old house with a friend who is an (old school) electrician. The whole house was knob and tube, plaster walls, hard to reach. He was of the "if it ain't broke why fix it?" mindset and saw nothing wrong with the knob and tube as it was in pretty good condition. That said, it is sometimes harder to find a company that will insure your house if you've got knob and tube, depending upon where you live. Are you looking for pricing, commiseration, a reference?
  3.  
    Old school electricians often recommend the "if it ain't broke" approach.   The problem is that if you open up the walls during a renovation you could damage the insulation on those wires, which is often so dried out and corroded that just touching it causes it to dust off.  Also, knob-and-tube is usually aluminum wire which doesn't play well with modern copper.   Around here the code requires special insulated wire nuts for aluminum-to-copper connections.  Finally, knob-and-tube doesn't have a ground and you're not supposed to use modern three-hole outlets unless the ground lug is functional.

    Personally, I'd ditch any knob-and-tube wiring as a #1 priority.  As a matter of fact, I got rid of all the aluminum BX in this house after my neighbor's house had an electrical fire from a copper connection in a ceiling box.



    A careful electrician can retrofit BX into an old house with minimal and very repairable plaster damage
    •  
      CommentAuthorCPDay
    • CommentTimeJan 25th 2007 edited
     
    Jayne's sister had a fire in the ceiling of her old farm house.  It started in an old knob-and-tube circuit that no one even knew was there.  As bad as that dated wiring might be, the real problem can be just not knowing what is in the walls and how many times that it has been modified.  Do the circuits' load protection match their wiring?  One would hope so, but...
    • CommentAuthoririshgirl
    • CommentTimeJan 25th 2007 edited
     

    I had some when I purchased my house and had to get it replaced before getting insurance.  Luck for me a PO had started and gotten most of it replaced.


     Another thing I was told at the time was if I was going to insulate the walls, I should be sure to replace because apparently Knob and Tube wiring needs to "breathe" .  Hence the tube that goes thru the studs.


    If your going to be opening the walls up then you might want to replace it and have the peace of mind.


    The blog - Fixer Upper - speaks of having to replace the Knob and tube in their home and how they did it.


     

    •  
      CommentAuthorShawn
    • CommentTimeJan 25th 2007 edited
     
    So far, I've replaced about 90% of the knob and tube in our house. So far, I haven't found any of it in a condition to be concerned about (no brittleness, good insulation, etc.). The only thing I've seen to cause concern is the lack of ceiling boxes - there have been several charred areas where the light fixture wiring was just taped to the house wiring and at some point it charred the ceiling - not good.



    As others have noted, many believe that 'if it's not broke..." - to some extent I agree, but for peace of mind, I think if I had to keep it long-term, I'd install arc-fault breakers on the circuits that have knob and tube wiring. From what I've read and been told, that should provide peace of mind if you have to live with the old wiring for a while; those breakers are also great if you've got children who like to stick things in the sockets. In many places (not sure if it's National Code yet or not), code requires all bedroom outlets to be on arc-fault breakers.



    If you have specific questions about knob and tube, feel free to ask.
    • CommentAuthor108maple
    • CommentTimeJan 26th 2007 edited
     
    It may seem like a pain, and be a bit expensive, but irishgirl is correct - the knob and tube CANNOT be insulated around.  This is not an issue if it is only in the ceilings, but as we found during our remodel, older homes didn't have insulation in the exterior walls.  We went ahead and replaced all the wiring, and new code requires you have hard-wired smoke detectors, so we did that while we re-ran the wires.
  8.  
    I'm slowly replacing all of the knob and tube in my house.  The floor outlets in the old part of the house are all on shiny new Romex now.  The master bedroom has its own circuit breakers and new wiring as well.  Ditto for the new furnace and that bathroom.  The kitchen, and the ceiling lights in this room and the Office upstairs are still on the old stuff.  My old wiring is scary.  As previously mentioned, no boxes and charred lath around the hole.  The wiring has just been twisted together and taped.  One such connection came apart in the basement one time.... had sparks flying and all kinds of cool stuff.  Once the new wiring is in place, I'll hook up the shiny new circuit breaker box and get off of my 60Amp service.  It'll be so nice to be able to use the microwave AND the refrigerator at the same time!  LOL
  9.  

    Im about to finish replacing all the nob and tube wiring in the farm house. besides appliances, well pump and out buildings there were only two circuits one for lights and one for plugs through out the entire house -- all fed by nob and tube.  I have since placed each room on its own circuit and have all but one room completed.  Ill finish the livingt room this weekend.  It was well worth the hell of replacing - i feel i can sleep better at night knowing that this potential firehazard has been avoided.


    Had I not replaced nob and tube discovered could have been a serious insurance problem for me as well. 

  10.  
    Bearfort: that's the main thing: you can sleep better at night.  A knob-and-tube installation may be perfectly safe but there's a good reason why insurance companies don't like them.



    My buddy was pretty casual about the electrical work in his house.  He replaced all the funky old aluminum wire with Romex but there was a heavy piece of old 1-1/2" BX that always concerned me.  It was the main from Con-Ed to his panel.  It always looked like an old bandit job to me, not just because I'd never seen a Con-Ed feed that didn't run in rigid steel conduit... even the really old stuff... but because it was exposed Greenfield running under a leaky old basement window.  I don't think the electrical code ever allowed that.  Methinks some crooked old inspector took an envelope for it.



    Anyway, last year about this time he and his wife awoke at 3am to the house filled with smoke.  It was that piece of BX.  Fortunately, the fire house is a block away because the captain said another three minutes and the house would have been a total loss.  That's how hot the fire was and howly quickly it started.  The radiant heat from that arcing BX was enough to melt PVC pipe twenty feet away.
  11.  

    Well i was informed that since i had opened up the ceiling in the kitchen (originally to find the source of a leak) and found old nob and tube wiring my choice was to (after fixing the leak) to just re-seal up the kitchen ignoring that I saw nob and tube - leave well enough alone - or replace it.  ALthough I was not excited about replacing it I knew that was the best choice.


    I talked to a bud of mine in the insurance industry and told him what I had found -- he said make sure that I replace it as since I had "discovered" it during other repairs -- had I just covered it up and there was an electrical fire as a result of the old nob and tube - my insurance company - knowing that I have been working on the house could in fact deny my coverage because I had not replaced a known hazzard.


    That was all I needed to hear.


    It has been a long process to get rid of it but Im only one room away from redoing all the wiring. It has held up all of my other efforts at the farm unfortunately but well worth the delay in the long run.

    • CommentAuthorsmoflag56
    • CommentTimeFeb 12th 2007 edited
     
    Hi back to all.  We are planning on replacing it all but will have to do room by room as we really don't have the money to do it all at once. Our home was inspected and was not reported to us on the report sent to us and our insurance company. So this was not a planned expense.  It was a very big shock and disappointment to us.  Thanks for all the imput.
  13.  
    I think adding to it, modifying are usually the problems. Our knob and tube was fine, but we got rid of it for the insurance company. Some of our basement fixtures, that didn't have boxes were charred, which is scary. One basement fixture had exposed connections on the sides. We had this really strange looking switch in the attic, that was completely exposed, it looked like a miniature Frankenstein/mad scientist switch.
  14.  
    Do any of you have any helpful resources (books, posts, websites) for a "how-to" on replacing knob and tube? We have it too, but it's not exposed (anymore). So, we aren't sure whether to replace or just leave it. It's in good shape (a bit of it WAS exposed when we did the dining room plumbing, but we didn't replace it then, b/c we knew we couldn't replace all of it without a lot more work at the time.) My understanding was that if you don't replace all of it, it's better to leave it alone, rather than replace a little at a time. Is that accurate? Electrical is one area where we don't have a ton of expertise. Thoughts?

    Thanks!
  15.  
    There's not much to know about knob-and-tube replacement beyond disconnecting it at the fuse/breaker box.  From then on it's conventional old-work wiring using BX or Romex.  This is a pretty good book for residential wiring:



    tinyurl.com/yrx8u6



    Remember that if you replace a k&t circuit then the new one may be required to meet current code.  This is largely up to your locality.   If so, it will invariably mean more outlets in the room, larger outlet boxes, separating lighting circuits from convenience circuits and possibly multiple circuits for the old k&t circuit (especially in kitchens and bathrooms).



    My mantra is "replace it all" but I have a bias against old electrical.  I've seen too many fires result from old wiring, even wiring that's more modern than k&t. 



    One tip: if you go the replacement route, it's a good time to also pull stuff like media, telephone and security/fire system wiring.  I did my upgrade very early in the house renovation here when I didn't mind knocking holes in the walls so I also ran central vac tubing and 3/4" copper for the upstairs bath.
  16.  
    Thanks! I'll check out the book... this thread has been really helpful guys (and gals!)
  17.  


    I am an electrican 34+ years and a licensed electrical inspector al lcode is from NFPA 70-NEC 2005

    I know electric, NOT SPELLING DON'T GIVE ME GRIEF CUZ  I MAY CHOSE TO SPELL IN NEW AND CREATIVE WAYS!!!



    Fact 1 Knob and Tube (K&T) Is made out of copper, not aluminum. It was tinned to help it stay clean for soldering and thats why it looks silver in color.



    Fact 2 K&T can only be used for extending existing installations of same. 394.10 (1) you can extend new circuits (Crks) from it, but then they would need to be grounded by 250-130(C.) or replacement Rcp only by 406.3(D) a, b or c. This new circuit extention splice would then need to be in a Junction box (JB) per 30.15. Some of this in a nut shell means you can put 3 wire rcp on an existing 2 wire Crk if you run them all from the load side of an upstream GFI rcp.(with some labeling requirements)



    Fact 3 K&T cannot be insulated around. The 1987 NEC  1st stated this, now its 2005 NEC 394.12 (5) theoretically before this you could insulate around K&T, however a reality check sez, don't do it, and if you did, un do it, its not safe. Best to bite bullet and rewire



    Fact 4 K&T is becoming a cause to have your insurance be revoked. Some insurers allow you to remove only the exposed K&T in the basement, if you see new wire going to JB's by the wall/ceiling penetrations, then see old K&T stubs going up thru the floor to the walls above, your house still has the bulk of the original K&T wiring, only it concealed. This is smoke and mirrors. The K&T you can see in the basement can be inspected and repaired, its the stuff you cannot inspect or fix thats the problem.
    •  
      CommentAuthorCPDay
    • CommentTimeMar 3rd 2007 edited
     
    Hey!   What's a guy that actually knows what he's talking about doing here?



    Kidding aside,  1electricalgenius,  thanks for some real information!
    •  
      CommentAuthorsarahk
    • CommentTimeMar 27th 2007 edited
     
    My home inspector just told me he found "hot" knob and tube wiring when going through our soon-to-be house. Should I try to get the sellers to replace it as part of the contract, per home inspection rights? If they won't, is there anyone out there that WILL ensure knob and tube long enough to get the mortgage and replace it myself? I need help
  20.  
    Don't buy the house unless ALL the K&T is removed (not just what you can see in the basement). Your insurance may be dropped and you cannot insulate arond the stuff. As an electrician this is what I am telling all my customers now, the stuff is 80 to 100 years old and was never designed for modern loads
    • CommentAuthorjordana
    • CommentTimeMar 28th 2007 edited
     
    State Farm insured us and gave us 90 days to have the knob and tube in our house removed.  Which meant we rally didn't have time to do it ourselves, but it did give us a big impetus to get right on it and have the whole house brought up to modern standards.
  22.  
    jordana,, how much did the rewire of your house cost, give a ball park
    •  
      CommentAuthorsarahk
    • CommentTimeApr 4th 2007
     
    Yeah, that would really help to know. Right now I'm figuring somewhere in the neighborhood of $7500 for us, given that it's such a large house (2800 sq.ft.), plus the new service and breaker box. I think the current service is 100amp.
    •  
      CommentAuthorOrange
    • CommentTimeApr 10th 2007 edited
     
    When you're searching for info on knob and tube, include a mention of Canada, where k+t is more common and there are a lot of resources. I just tried to dig up a link to this great PDF I found about how to inspect k+t when we bought the house but it seems to be gone 9replaced by Romex!). Maybe I'll throw it up on the blog later tonight. 



    We're taking the "run a new circuit off the box every time you can" approach, until eventually all the k+t has ben supplanted with Romex.  We had to call a few insurers to get someone who would cover it, and if you're willing to pay a little more to buy time while you replace it that might be worth it. If you have any connection to the military (you're in it, your spouse or parent was, etc) try USAA insurance.



    Fishing wires through the walls will be your biggest expense, and many electricians won't do it at all, preferring to carve up the plaster instead. You can attach k+t to a new service box, but very carefully.
    • CommentAuthorsanthony
    • CommentTimeMay 18th 2007 edited
     

    USAA only insures K&T for 30 days after policy start, after that they most likely will cancel your policy.


    We are in the process of buying an old house built in 1902, and it has approx 30-50 percent of the house left on K&T. I had called USAA 2 months ago in anticipation of buying this house and told them upfront that it had K&T to see if they would insure.. never got a solid answer and it was kinda of a disappointment that I told them upfront to make sure they would insure that it had K&T and I didn't know about it till about 4 total hours later once I got through underwriting, and the underwriter told me 30 days or no go.


    We had planned on taking a year to replace it ourselves, because i want it out ASAP. I finally talked the underwriter into insuring us with the understanding they can drop us at anytime and that we would work on removing it as soon as we could. It was a major struggle but USAA still impresses me with their service. Although the cost was a bit higher than some places, I think in the end it is worth it. 3000 total SQ FT (1790 liveable) cost me 680.00 annual with 187k worth of coverage.


    I just hope we can in the end do all of this on our own.. I know it's a major project...

  26.  
    I just learned a lot reading all these entries! We are still trying to figure out if we have knob and tube wiring. I say we do and my husband says no. How can you tell? Is there a way to tell with out tearing into a wall or ceiling? I know we have it in the smokehouse (already cut the power to it), we're just not sure about the actual house.
    •  
      CommentAuthorGary
    • CommentTimeSep 25th 2007 edited
     
    I just learned a lot reading all these entries! We are still trying to figure out if we have knob and tube wiring. I say we do and my husband says no. How can you tell?

    Take down a ceiling light and see what kind of wire you have feeding it! If it is two separate chunky wires that aren't encased together then you can be pretty sure it is knob and tube. It is common for first floor outlets to be upgraded but less likely that second floor was replaced. Especially the ceiling lights!
  28.  
    How much damage do I have to do to  fish wires from a cieling light to a wall switch?  Is it as obvious as it looks or is there a trade trick?
  29.  
    I just had similar work done in an old house that I am flipping and didn't have light switches for ceiling lights in several rooms. I thought the damage was minor.

    The electrician used an attachment for his drill that cut 4-inch circles through the plaster and lathe.
    He made two holes per room. Both are near the corner where the ceiling and wall meet in the location above the new light switch. One hole was in the ceiling, the other a few inches below on the wall.

    He used a device to "fish" the wire through the walls. I presume like on these links:
    http://www.doityourself.com/stry/gofishing
    http://www.cornerhardware.com/howto/ht039.html

    Another option: A previous electrician had jabbed holes in horizontal lines every foot or so to fish Romex through the wall to rewire three outlets in one room. He left such a mess I opted to install wainscoting. :)
  30.  
    We quit our knob & tube cold turkey.  Like many, we had planned on redoing the wiring gradually, only initially fully rewiring rooms that were going down the studs.  However, once we started tearing into walls, two things became painfully clear:



    1. It is very, very difficult to isolate some of these old circuits.  Yanking the circuit for the bathroom outlet might cut power to a bedroom light.  Our house was apparently wired by M.C Escher...about 35 circuits total (some K&T, some others added in the 60's), yet all circuits seemed to be present in every room.  I got very frustrated trying to sort it all out, so one day I just turned everything off and yanked everything out of the breaker box except the more recent basement circuits.  And to prove the point that K&T can get really confusing, I offer up the example of the electrician that installed our new breaker box (we had the seller replace it as part of the house deal).  While hosting a "pre-remodel" party, we had lots of light bulbs burn out.  The next morning I confirmed with my multi-meter that the electrician had put 240V across the lighting circuit.  It also fried a CD player that we had plugged into a bedroom outlet, further evidence of how messed up the wiring was.

    2. While K&T may be technically safe, the big problem is not knowing what other electricians or homeowners have done to it throughout the years.  After finding my 2nd in-wall splice and the bathroom wire that was routed into the plaster, I wasn't comfortable with any of the wiring in the house.
    Now we had a few advantages that made this possible... first, we weren't living in the house at the time.  This added time to our eight month rehab prior to moving in, but at least we didn't have to try to live in there while running everything off long extension cords running down the the basement.  Secondly, I was doing all the wiring myself, so the cost was reasonable. Especially when you factor in that copper was less than half the cost in 2004 as it is today!  It was a ton of work, but it was worth it.  We don't ever have breakers trip due to overloads, everything is grounded and I sleep better at night.

    Someone else had commented about modern codes requiring more outlets.  That was the major reason that I did some of the wiring "off the books."  While I am a big believer in having lots of outlets in rooms that need them, such as kitchens, bedrooms and outlets, I didn't want to have to start carving up the walls or woodwork in our dining or living rooms.  Those are rooms that will never see more than a lamp or two, so we don't need outlets around the full perimeter.  I was afraid I'd be forced to add a lot of outlets, so I simply rewired the existing two or three per room on the sly.

    I would hate to have to rewire a house that was fully closed up.  I had really good access from the basement and from the upstairs, which I had fully gutted.  Without those areas, it would have been a nightmare and taken many times longer.  I will also second BrooklynRowHouse's comment about running other wiring at the same time.  I didn't do enough of this at the time, so I regularly find myself having to mess around with TV or network cables.  And then when I finished off the upstairs, I went too far to the other extreme and ran 5 coax cables and 10 CAT5 for just 3 rooms!  And of course, we don't use any of it, and I can't even imagine when I am going to allow my 5 year old to have her own TV.  Hopefully never.

    Julio
    • CommentAuthorgentmol
    • CommentTimeApr 17th 2008
     
    Hello all, this is a very interesting discussion.  I am buying a house in old Niskayuna, NY.  It was built in 1933.   The inspector found a little knob and tube in the attic and when I had an electrician come in, he found that at least the entire upstairs is old knob and tube.  I suspect I won't be able to insure the house without fixing it, and am not sure if the owners will agree to pay to have it fixed.  Any suggestions???
    •  
      CommentAuthordave729
    • CommentTimeApr 18th 2008
     
    We just finished a whole house rewire -- and I mean whole house from the service entrance to the furthest outlet.  We had an attic full of knob & tube plus some in the walls.  Most of the remaining wiring was two conductor (no ground wire).  Maybe State Farm has a don't ask don't tell policy around here, but they never asked about wiring.  They came out and looked at the house and the roof, but never went into the attic or anywhere they would have seen the wiring type.  The PO's took a take it or leave it stance on the sale conditions, which we knew, so we didn't even try to get them to do it.  Even with the K&T and other problems (like no heat or A/C),the appraisal still came in above our purchase price -- this was two months ago.

    It took our electrician about four weeks, including some time when he had emergency dental surgery.  He completed one side of the house, which we moved in to, then the otherside.  In the midst of that, the HVAC guys put in a complete new central system, so it was somewhat crazy around here for many days.  After a thumbs up from the city electrical inspector last Friday, a utility crew came out and installed a new meter in the new meter box Monday. 
  33.  
    The house we bought had K&T throughout (as did all of the houses we looked at it in this area of Maine). The insurance company flat out refused to insure it with it intact and so we haggled with the sellers to have them replace the VISIBLE K&T in the basement and in the attic, at an estimated $1500. They agreed and then when the electrician came he found that he couldn't just do that and ended up replacing all of it (without knocking down any walls or ceilings) and it ended up being more like $4500. The nice thing now is that we not only don't have it, but we now also have grounded outlets (which we didn't have before) and GFCIs in the kitchen and bathrooms. It's a pain but I think worth it.
    • CommentAuthorsanthony
    • CommentTimeApr 23rd 2008
     
    So after pulling out one of my walls in my basement tonight out of frustration from a termite infestation, I decided to go for it and make the rest of my life miserable by shutting off the rest of the K&T in my house after finding some of it with a spliced Romex wire off of it.. LOL

    Half my house is dark and creepy, but I'm much happier - maybe now I'll finish what I started...
    • CommentAuthorfarmhouse
    • CommentTimeAug 4th 2008
     

    We purchased a house built around 1918, 2 story off grade.  Knob and tube wiring.  After the insurance agreed to insure the house based on the 4 point inspection we purchased it.  45 days later we get a letter from the insurance company with a refund check stating they would not continue to insure the house because of several reasons which one of them was the presence of cloth wiring.  3 of the reasons was cleared up and the insurance company agree to continue coverage if the cloth wiring was replaced within 90 days.  We were aware of the knob and tube wiring and had plans of replacing it one room at a time during the rehab.  Now we have 90 days.  Most of the cloth insulating will fall off if the wire is moved or bent thus exposing the wire.  After searching some of the wiring out last night I found that all of the outlets on the 2nd story have been rewired only leaving the lights on the original knob and tube.  Changing the lights over will be fairly easy in the attic.  The bottom floor will be the trick.  We also found blown insulation in the attic with the knob and tube.  From my readings this is a no no and I understand why.  Now we feel like this is a high priority and has been moved up to number 1 on the “to do” list, which is a fairly long list at this time.  I will put together some pics and post them on our progress and what we find alone the way.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

    • CommentAuthorfarmhouse
    • CommentTimeAug 8th 2008
     
    Page 2-
    After jumping thru hoops to make the corrections the insurance company wanted they dropped us like a hot potato anyway.  At 3:30pm Friday evening they let us know the policy would cancel at 12:00am Sunday.  Yes, a day and a half later on the weekend your policy will cancel.  Jerks.  Anyway, we picked up another policy that at the moment didnt mind about any of the issues except, theres always an except, 1 year to re roof and 6 months to remove the cloth wiring.  At least we have 6 months this time.  So until next time,
    •  
      CommentAuthor485Needham
    • CommentTimeSep 3rd 2008
     
    Wow, it's interesting hearing from others about their experiences. Our knob-n-tube story is pretty boring! Here it is in point form:



    • House inspector pointed out some of the K&T in the back shed that was 'suspect', but otherwise said it shouldn't be much of a concern.

    • We've been gradually replacing any 'visible' K&T; so all the wiring in the attic and basement is done.

    • Kitchen was rewired and the old fuses replaced by a circuit breaker by the previous owner.

    • Any K&T we find when we rip the walls out of the bedroom and bathroom we're redoing is being replaced.

    • I had no problem with house insurance - I just went with the same insurance company that the previous owners used.

    • I did call around for insurance once seeing if I could get a better deal. One company wouldn't cover me because of the K&T, here is what they said: the company was from Ontario (Canada) and most K&T homes are found more to the east (we'r'e in New Brunswick). So a large, central company will often not cover a K&T home, but an eastern company will because it is more common in that area.
  38.  

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